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 Let's talk about "P2W"

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PostSubject: Let's talk about "P2W"   Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:31 am

Quick Disclaimer: P2W (pay to win) within this context simply means paying real money for advantages that other people don't have.

Okay, so by now it's common knowledge that you're able to buy bonds with cash and sell them for GP. You can also buy Treasure Hunter Keys, which can make skill progression much quicker and net you some pretty nice GP as well. Here's where I want to hear your opinions.

What are your thoughts on micro-transactions in Runescape?

Does this undermine your hard-earned accomplishments?

Do you buy keys or bonds with real money? Why?


Personally, I lean toward supporting micro-transactions in games (at the end of the day, it is a business). That said, I strongly disagree with the notion that micro-transactions should give you advantages that other people don't have. The way I see it, many accomplishments that used to have value in the past are now meaningless.

Discuss.
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about "P2W"   Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:45 am

This is a very strongly controversial topic.  Everyone knows makes for the best thread forums. First off thank you for making this thread and secondly thank you for asking the questions.

I support micro transactions simply because either JageX is selling their in-game gold for money or Botting companies are doing it.  

People have been buying gold to support the expense of skills far longer than micro transactions have existed. The only difference now is that the (in real life) money goes to JageX to support the game that we love and players do not have to risk losing their accounts.

Treasure hunter on the other hand is something which has never existed but has been a great buisness call for them. The bxp gains recieved from the chests are real.

Now granted, it can be exponentially benificial to spend your in real life hard earned cash to have the upperhand on other players but is that fair?  I have to think: the only way you're going to be able to sell your bonds on the grand exchanges if somebody is buying them.
... So with out players buying them with irl cash the other players buying them off the GE wouldnt be able to get membership without a credit card.

Bonds prove to be benificial as much to the in-game wealthy as it is to the irl-wealthy.

In conclusion: treasure hunter started to get Jagex more money, searves no other benifit to them.

Bonds got rid of bot farming and provided pkayers a risk free form of buying in-game GP (which they had been doing all along)

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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about "P2W"   Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:26 am

Thanks for the thought provoking reply, Bio. I'll do what I can to address your points.

Quote :
I support micro transactions simply because either JageX is selling their in-game gold for money or Botting companies are doing it.  

People have been buying gold to support the expense of skills far longer than micro transactions have existed. The only difference now is that the (in real life) money goes to JageX to support the game that we love and players do not have to risk losing their accounts.

While I understand your point at its core, I don't think it's a good solution for gold sellers. By that logic, Jagex should also offer power-leveling, questing, and other services (Kiln, bossing, etc) to be sold for cash in order to fight against third parties who do the same thing. In fact, why not take it a step further and just charge players $500 for a maxed account? The reason they don't do any of that is because it sounds ridiculous, they would likely be called out as corporate money-grubbing sellouts, and it would ruin their game's reputation. But the principle is the exact same as selling gold---you're buying an advantage.

Quote :
Treasure hunter on the other hand is something which has never existed but has been a great buisness call for them. The bxp gains recieved from the chests are real.

Be that as it may, it's still the same concept as mentioned above. If players were only able to win cosmetic things off of TH, I would be fine with it.

Quote :
... So with out players buying them with irl cash the other players buying them off the GE wouldnt be able to get membership without a credit card.

Bonds prove to be benificial as much to the in-game wealthy as it is to the irl-wealthy.

The solution here is to sell bonds from an in-game vendor for GP. That way, people could pay for their memberships without a credit card, and it would prevent people from essentially buying GP. The reality is Jagex wants their players to buy GP.

Quote :
Bonds got rid of bot farming and provided pkayers a risk free form of buying in-game GP (which they had been doing all along)

Bots are still very prevalent despite bonds, and same goes with GP/service sellers. I'd rather people run the risk of being banned when buying GP than to buy GP directly from Jagex. That way they might be more hesitant at the very least.
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about "P2W"   Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:31 am

Buying an advantage = bonds bring me back to my original point of other players choosing to buy bonds on GE to save their money on membership, while considering this you can easily suppose it would be the same as the person buying the bonds being the same as buying someone else membership. Both parties will benefit from bonds being in game.

                              = in regards to treasure hunter, players can purchase keys with in game cash by purchasing bonds and redeeming them for keys. Thus being the same as bossing for a week to purchase bxp in game. If someone doesn't think bxp is right then consider the bonus experience weekends.

****** playing devils advocate I can agree that the maxed player which achieved max stats before T.H. or bonds I can remorsefully appreciate that their work in-game will be less recognized than they would have prior. But new methods of training are coming out every day. That 99 rune crafting cape doesn't mean as much as it did prior to the release of the rune crafting runespan. Likewise 99 woodcutting was depreciated with release of ivy, then elder trees, then crystal trees. But I believe this new content is necessary to guarantee the growth of runescape.

If JageX didn't sell bonds then it would force players who tend to buy gp to go and find third-parties for their gp, risking their account, and giving money to botting companies rather than to JageX which can then be placed back into the game and go towards development and building a team of employees to moderate and expand runescape.

I can agree with you though. If JageX didn't sell bonus experience, and if they didn't sell in game cash then the community would be slower to level & it would increase the bragging rights of skill capes and accomplishments. But, I can however agree that those days are far behind us and focusing on how things were isn't going to help the moral of the runescape community.

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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about "P2W"   Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:44 pm

You brought up some pretty good points that I'd like to address.

Quote :
= in regards to treasure hunter, players can purchase keys with in game cash by purchasing bonds and redeeming them for keys. Thus being the same as bossing for a week to purchase bxp in game. If someone doesn't think bxp is right then consider the bonus experience weekends.
I have nothing against BXP (in general) or the occasional BXP weekend (since it's a free event that involves everyone). However, I have a problem with the option of buying BXP for cash. Using your example, how is it fair that Player 1 needs to boss for a week to earn enough GP to buy BXP, while Player 2 simply pays cash for BXP? Player 1 earns the GP legitimately, Player 2 pays cash to skip the hard part. It's P2W at its finest.

Quote :
That 99 rune crafting cape doesn't mean as much as it did prior to the release of the rune crafting runespan. Likewise 99 woodcutting was depreciated with release of ivy, then elder trees, then crystal trees.

I really like this point and I'm inclined to agree to some extent. I consider this to be an unfortunate reality for Runescape as it naturally progresses. A lot of things in the game are becoming easier to achieve as more content comes out. That said, it still doesn't validate a P2W model for the game. Just because things are getting easier to achieve doesn't mean people should be able to pay for an advantage that other people don't have.

Quote :
If JageX didn't sell bonds then it would force players who tend to buy gp to go and find third-parties for their gp, risking their account, and giving money to botting companies rather than to JageX which can then be placed back into the game and go towards development and building a team of employees to moderate and expand runescape.

At the cost of the game's integrity, sure. But we don't live in a world where that is the only solution. People get banned all the time for buying GP from third party sellers. Rather than sacrificing the integrity of their game and adopting a P2W model, Jagex could focus their efforts on cracking down on buyers (and even sellers, but mostly buyers). It may not eradicate third party selling altogether, but at the very least it could make Real World Trading a very risky activity that could get anyone's dynamic IP banned. That would very likely wane the number of eager participants.

Quote :
I can agree with you though. If JageX didn't sell bonus experience, and if they didn't sell in game cash then the community would be slower to level & it would increase the bragging rights of skill capes and accomplishments. But, I can however agree that those days are far behind us and focusing on how things were isn't going to help the moral of the runescape community.

The nostalgia factor is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. I don't want the game the way it was in 2007, and I'm sure you and many more feel the same, otherwise we'd be having this conversation in OSRS Wink

To stray from formality for a minute, I like that you mentioned bragging rights. Like, why do we do anything in life? To accomplish things, be it earning a promotion, learning an instrument, dominating at a sport, working out, beating a video game, etc. It can be something as significant as understanding the universe, to something as trivial as learning how to tie a knot. These are accomplishments that hold personal value.

Okay, where am I going with this? Well, the same applies to Runescape. People like accomplishing things, and those accomplishments are undermined when they can simply be paid for. I think you get my point, but we might just have different biases.

But I digress.

I appreciate the discussion!
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PostSubject: Re: Let's talk about "P2W"   Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:29 pm

Always happy to conversate. I love the back and forth debate and thus end up fighting for something which enternaly hold no moral to me.

I say to each their own. Buy xp or dont, buy gp or dont. & if you are not doing it for nostalgia (as you say) than it shouldnt matter if others can level to 99 faster than you can because you are just leveling it for yourself. That 99 you finally achieve will feel just as good as if everyone else had to do it that way. Very Happy

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